The thing that seemed to throw a wrench in the works, was whether the adversary can read thoughts. Doug stated that the devil CAN read our thoughts - something I have never believed, even though most else that he spoke passed the litmus of things as I understand them.
You can have a smorgasbord of great food and still have a turd tucked away in the fruit salad that ruins the entire thing. The Spirit will NEVER testify of a portion of untruth that is mingled with the remaining scripture or truth. Its all or nothing when we teach or are receiving truth - thus the need to be doctrinally correct in all that we say and do in the name of the Lord. That is how the devil gets his agenda across. It is true that he knows that most people will not buy a pack of lies, but they often will buy a single lie mingled with many other truths. The gift of discernment is crucial in this life.
Here is a talk by Francis M. Gibbons who was the Area 70 back in the late 80's and early 90's down in Fortaleza where I served as an Assistant to the President at the time. I translated for Elder Gibbons during a mission conference when he spoke (his Portuguese was "muito fraco"). That was a difficult assignment, to say the least. It requires perfect mental acuity to get it right:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-dual-aspects-of-prayer?lang=eng
I think this General Conference talk from October 1991, (THE DUAL ASPECTS OF PRAYER by Francis M. Gibbons) dovetails with some of the aspects being discussed in this thread. Before I quote the talk, remember that it was allowed to be given under the direction of President Ezra Taft Benson, and his counselors Gordon B. Hinckley, and Thomas S. Monson. To my knowledge it has not been retracted. If anyone knows of this, then please say so...or if these Bretheren or more current leaders corrected the doctrines taught here, please inform me.
Here are some excerpts of the talk that are especially pertinent to our discussion on this thread:
"It is clear, then, that Satan and his followers, who have been cast out of God’s presence and are dead to His Spirit, are excluded from those who, by the spirit of prophecy and revelation, may know the thoughts and the intents of our hearts. So, in his wisdom and mercy, God has provided a channel of communication between him and his children on earth that Satan, our common enemy, cannot invade. This is the channel of secret prayer. The significance of this to the Latter-day Saint is profound, for by this means we are able to communicate with our Heavenly Father in secrecy, confident that the adversary cannot intrude."
(This speaks peace to my soul. It feels like light and truth to me. This talk speaks peace to my soul.) Joseph Smith did not know this truth when he was first seeking answers. There was no one to teach it to him. He had to learn by experience. It is my belief that over time God gave him keys in how minimize the effects of the adversary and how not to be deceived.
"David Whitmer reported that the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.” (In B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, 1:163.) But while Satan can convey thoughts, he does not know whether these thoughts have taken root unless they are reflected either in words or in actions."
"All this suggests that we should be wise in what we say and do. We should also be wise in the way we guard precious things that are revealed to us through the Spirit. For example, when President Heber J. Grant was a young man, presiding in the Tooele Stake, Patriarch John Rowberry gave him a special blessing. Afterward, the patriarch said to President Grant, “I saw something that I dared not mention.” President Grant later recorded it was made known to him at that moment that he would one day be the President of the Church. He never discussed this revelation with anyone, never recorded it, and revealed it only after it was an accomplished fact. (See Francis M. Gibbons, Heber J. Grant: Man of Steel, Prophet of God, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979, p. viii.) How wise he was, for had he revealed it to others, his enemy, Satan, would have known and, with that knowledge, could have created unimaginable difficulties for him."
"Often, we talk too much. We say things that need not be said or should not be said; for in saying them, we may open a crevice which enables Lucifer to wedge his way into our lives. We learn from 2 Nephi that Satan “seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.” (2 Ne. 2:27.) Satan and his followers are persistent in their quest to drag us down to their level. They will use any device or artifice to accomplish their end. If they know, for example, of revelations such as the one given to President Grant, or if they see from our words or actions evidence of animosity or hatred or discord among us, they may capitalize on them in ways which will be detrimental to us. Wisdom suggests, therefore, that we suppress words and actions which might enable Satan to harm us or whose tendency might be to create discord or enmity."
Maybe each of us should take our conclusions to the Lord "pray[ed] in secret, relating our [her] experience and asking God to reveal whether our [her] conclusion is correct, in the manner prescribed in the ninth section of the Doctrine and Covenants. (See D&C 9:8–9.)"
It is interesting that this talk was brought back to my remembrance after all those years, in light of discussion we are having....
Thanks for your post. I recently finished reading Doug's book and remember him referring to the ability of evil spirits to "hear" the thoughts of our mind. Doug also mentioned he didn't believe they can "hear" the thoughts and intents of the heart, which is similar to the phrase you quote from Francis Gibbons. It sounds like he's in agreement with Francis Gibbons on that point. Whether there is a difference between the thoughts of the mind and the thoughts and intents of the heart is an interesting idea to ponder.
ReplyDeleteWow. I just came across this blog. I was at that meeting too. I felt the same way you did. I really like how you articulated how you felt, and what that was all about. Thank you for that and thank you for this:
ReplyDelete"The Spirit will NEVER testify of a portion of untruth that is mingled with the remaining scripture or truth. Its all or nothing when we teach or are receiving truth - thus the need to be doctrinally correct in all that we say and do in the name of the Lord."
Now that I have found your blog I am looking forward to reading more of what you have to say.
ReplyDeleteMy Facebook page is "Awaken to Our Awful Situation" and I appreciate these types of blogs as I continue to awaken myself and others.
This comment is not intended to flame the fire but to possibly add some scriptural perspective. I have read Doug's book Conquering Spiritual Evil and when I first read his comment about Satan being able to read our thoughts I was at first taken back as well. I thought I read it wrong and then re-read it to make sure Doug wrote what he did...and he did in fact write that.
ReplyDeleteSince that time I have really pondered that thought instead of rejecting it outright and I have come to believe that Doug was correct; not because Doug wrote it but because of what is in scripture.
Doug was teaching that in D&C 6:16 God told Joseph that only God could know "the thoughts and the intents of thy heart." Doug's point was that the heart has the ability to think because it carries within it our truest thoughts in the way of motivations and intents. He was further teaching that only God knows those thoughts (of the heart, not the mind), not Satan. This scripture has been used for many years as a way of teaching that Satan cannot know the thoughts of the mind, but God would have said mind if that was his intent.
Further scriptural evidence that the heart has the ability to carry thoughts are clearly shown in:
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
D&C 33:1 Behold I say unto you, my servants Ezra and Northrop, open ye your ears and hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, whose word is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of the joints and marrow, soul and spirit; and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Again, my intention is not to stir the spot. I shared your initial concern when I read this concept for the first time but after allowing myself to be open to the new idea of hearts being able to carry thoughts that the devil can’t know of, I learned that Doug was correct in this teaching and most importantly it seems the scriptures back that teaching. It seems Christ taught that idea and God certainly did when choosing David as the heir to Saul when he told Samuel in 1st Samuel 16:7 that He “looketh on the heart.”
I agree with Joe Gardner. I know there has been many times when I've been thinking something and then had direct temptations or distractions or even false answers come directly in response to thoughts in my mind that I was pondering at the time. I've wondered about this for years and even though I question much of what Doug is teaching at the moment, I do believe there is merit in that statement. Simple experience tells me it must be so.
ReplyDeleteI also disagree with the idea that the Spirit will not justify someone unless everything they are saying is true. I went to many church services on my mission for the LDS church, just to get face time in the community and proselyte to other christians. And there was many occasions I felt the Spirit testify of individual points even though the scope of the talk was incorrect.
Furthermore, the current day leaders often teach things which are in direct contradiction to what was taught at previous times. This is not a slam against the church leaders or the inspired work. It's just the way things are.
When I read Doug Mendenhall's book I too felt he had it wrong about spirits reading our thoughts. However the Holy Ghost was able to help me to see what was good and true in the book and reject that one falsity, as He obviously did for you too. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
ReplyDeleteI would just like to say, just so it is somewhere, that The Mendenhall's are extremely and totally false. Doug only does this sort of thing for all of the wrong reasons. He used his daughters condition to gain fans. He claims he knows so much about what he is talking about, and maybe he does know some things, but I heard Denise say that what her father is doing is wrong.
ReplyDeleteAnd she claims to be vail-less. She claims she is so close to god, but would some one who was a vessel for the lord drink and curse and experiment in sexuality that is outside of the sanctity of marriage? I think not. And please, just know that the reason I know these things is because I know her personally. She is not a good person. And that may be because of the brain damage she suffered from her stroke/coma. But I believe that if you are that close to god, you would at least be good to yourself, and those around you. And she isn't.
And I am not saying that all they do is wrong. They bring hope to people and that is great. Just be careful when being involved with them. Don't follow a false prophet. She doesn't do what god tells her, she does what her dad tells her.
And he does what he does because he lives off of what Denise makes. He has used her for his own gain ever since she was a child.
Just please see through their lies, and take what you will from what they say, just make sure what you take is with out a doubt the truth. Because they have been lying to so many people for a very long time. There are those of us who worry that whoever is whispering to them what they preach to you is more a malevolent thing than a heavenly thing.
I personally think Doug and Denise are sincere. I have no reason to doubt them and also know Doug to be kind. He lent me some of there books and never charged me a cent nor ever asked for any money. I discovered several years later a letter I made to send him the money and proceeded to do so but never heard anything from him. Sure somethings they teach are different but that doesn't make them untrue. Also, I would judge a man or woman's heart by how they treat others and not whether they swear or drink beer.
ReplyDeleteHello all,,I have enjoyed Dougs book on Conguering Spiritual Evil very much as there is really nothing out there similar written by an LDS writer. When and if you want to start talking about evil spirits with most LDS people..boom they evaporate the room fast lol..I would llike to mention a pyschologist by the name of Paul Ekemen he discovered the art of reading peoples emotions by looking at their face..It was once written that he could walk into a post office and look at the wanted posters and tell you what crimes the people had committed..He invented a system called FACS the facail action coding system,,which is used a lot today evern by animators..So the point I am making is that if he could learn to read your thoughts on your face then it would absolutely be very easy for satan to do that also..We all show who and what we are in all things,,actions and physical attributes also,,if one has the eye to see,,he can see. And to the anonymous person who ran them down so bad, I would ask if there is anyone that he knows who has been able to always do what the Lord has asked us to do,,we all know the answer to that and we all know who the accuser of the brethren is..In ascertaining the intent of that negative comment on the mendenhalls I am inclined to believe that it was coming from satan. A little side note here if any of you read this I would highly recomend a book called The Great Gathering,,the author has a website and you tube display for free that is edited a little from the book,,but,,she has compiled many Nde's,,prohpecies,,visions that even give us a timeline now..If it is true and happens sometime around New Years day of 2017,,we get to see world war 3 start and Obama declares Martial Law,,,so check her book out ...I am now hurredly working on my food supply I have neglected...I wish you all the success we each yearn for in our personal relationship with our Elder brother,,Jesus the Christ..
ReplyDeleteI would like to take a moment to remind all of us, through the LORD JESUS CHRIST "all" things are possible. Women healing, the dead brought to life, casting out of evil spirits, discernment of principalities. but the key, is to have the understanding and knowledge that comes from the LORD Jesus Christ. Please "never" doubt the MASTER!
ReplyDelete