I really like Eric. He is intelligent and thoughtful.
This is another excellent piece on his blog:
http://doctrinalessays.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-doctrinal-significance-of-callout.html
Enjoy. And I love the picture of the handcarts. Once again, Saints will be on the move.
For some of you that might know me from FB,like Eric
ReplyDelete(I used the name Isaiah)
know that I have posted many times
that "There will be NO Call out", let me clarify this.
There WILL be a Call out, but not by the prophet
or by the church.
It is the Lord's church and HE will do the Calling out by and through the Holy Ghost. Only he knows your heart and who is righteous and who is not.
CALL OUT ?
Question -
So if there's supposed to be this "Great Gathering" or this
"call-out" as many call it - that we need to hurry
and buy all this stuff to get ready for;
where many members are saved from the tribulations;
how do they fit into these scriptures below ?
Our scriptures paint a whole different picture of what's to happen to the church and it's members and all those(Gentiles) living in this "choice land".
I'm not saying that I don't believe the Lord will spare some people, but
it's just that if it does happen, it won't happen in the way that everyone
thinks it will and to who they think it will happen to, (members).
Gileadi
page 4
The Gathering of Israel’s Outcasts from Exile
A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people whom God saves in the end but those who are rejected by the majority. These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8). In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).
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To see something VERY IMPORTANT about the "call out"
go to - The Time is NOW: Leaving Spiritual Babylon — Part 2
The “WHY” (Preparing for the Great Tribulation)
skip up to: Call out and tent cities start at 18min also 1hr 17min
food storage 15 min.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCeDXJA9Rv8
Call out
I do NOT believe that the church will have a "call out"
By what basis is the church going to Call members out. ?
Wouldn't a person have to be very righteous and worthy ?
So how can the church tell WHO is righteous and Who is not ?
The church is only capable of looking on the outward appearance,
it can not and does not look on the heart.
The ONLY things that the church has to judge you by is:
attendance records
callings
home/visiting teaching
temple recommend holder
tithing settlement records
debt free
food storage
These things really don't prove you are righteous at all.
ANYBODY can do these things and still be a very bad person.
And I'm sure there are many in the chuch that do these things;
they appear to be good but their "hearts are far from me"
Isaiah 29
13 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is "taught by the precept of men"
Only God knows your heart and knows who is righteous
and who is not. He looks on the heart, not on the outward appearance.
Just as scripture after scripture says -
it is the "Lord" who leads people out.
It's true that there are maybe some members (very very few)
that are worthy and know Christ and his voice and through
Christ, through his holy spirit will gather (some) individuals together
and lead them out from the tribulation that will come.
Not the church.
After listening to Shelle, who wrote "The Great Gathering" book,
to say that a person will be spared from the tribulations and are
worthy to go on the call out because he has food storage,
and that if you don't you can't go,
is about the most ridiculous assumption I've ever heard.
"Call out" ?
ReplyDeleteThere will be NO call out - at least not by the church.
The tribulations that are coming are coming
on the church and it's members first
and the entire Gentile nation (the U.S.)
We need to WAKE UP !
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !
2 Nephi 1:
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
2 Nephi 28:
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
---------------------------------------------------
We are without revelation
Isaiah 29:9,10,13,
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men
Isaiah 9:2 the people "walking in darkness"
(without revelation) refers to the church today.
"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast. Russia
9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
---------------------------------------
Call out
Why would the lord want to spare the saints (the church and it's members)
when it is them that the Lord is sending these tribulations upon ?
(just as with ancient Israel in bondage in Egypt,
as the scriptures say below.
If these scriptures aren't for us; referring to the church today,
how do you account for D&C 103: 15-18
Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !
These scriptures show that we (members) WILL be in bondage.
D&C 103
15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.
18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the
redemption of Zion be."
Many members believe that the prophet will call the "saints" out
but the scriptures say that the saints will be taken captive for 3 1/2 years.
Captivity has always been the means of purging the
Lord's people of their idolatry.
“I beheld, and the same horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them… and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time” (3 1/2 years) Daniel 7:21, 25
so WHO is going to be called out ?
WHY ?
ReplyDeleteThese scriptures below show that we WILL be
swept off this land because of the iniquity of the children.
B of M
Ether 2:11,12)
11 “And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God – that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.”
(Ether 2:9,10)
9 “And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it
shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God.
And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”
Ether says three times "swept off",
but the last time he says it, he says it like it will happen.
"And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”
Serve God or be swept off this "Choice Land" !
Where much is given, much is required.
Have we lived up to the lease of the land ? NO !
-------------------------------------------------------
3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
And for those of you who believe Isaiah and Daniel.
ReplyDeletesee in Daniel - "And they shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and the dividing of time."
This scripture shows that we the saints will be taken
captive for 3 and a half years.
Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?
Isaiah uses what are called types from the past
to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.
ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.
WHY DID THE LORD HIMSELF SAY
"for great are the words of Isaiah" and
gave us a commandment that we search them diligently.
In Isaiah the term
Egypt always refers to the U.S. Cush is Canada
Assyria is Russia - the beast - the bear who's king is the Antichrist
The Lord uses him - the king of Assyria -" little horn is the mouth of the beast." to be a scourge to us.
He will take us captive for 3 and a half years.
(see in Daniel - "And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
Isaiah 20:
3 Then Jehovah said, Just as my servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot for three years as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush,
4 so shall the king of Assyria (Russia) lead away the captives of Egypt (the U.S.) and the exiles of Cush, both young and old, naked and barefoot, with buttocks uncovered—to Egypt’s shame.
5 Men shall be appalled and perplexed at Cush, their hope, and at Egypt, their boast.
6 In that day shall the inhabitants of this isle say, See what has become of those we looked up to, on whom we relied for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How shall we ourselves escape?
also Isaiah 7:17
17The Lord shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father’s house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.
19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
20 In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard."
The flies and bees are metaphors for warring units, winged units or planes.
--------------------------------------------------
Isaiah19
1An oracle concerning Egypt:(the U.S.)
When Jehovah enters Egypt riding on swift clouds,
the idols of Egypt will rock at his presence
and the Egyptians’ hearts melt within them.
2 I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians;
they will fight brother against brother
and neighbor against neighbor,
city against city and state against state.
3 Egypt’s spirit shall be drained from within;
I will frustrate their plans,
and they will resort to the idols and to spiritists,
to mediums and witchcraft.
4 Then will I deliver the Egyptians (the U.S.)
into the hand of a cruel master;(Russia)
a harsh ruler will subject them,
says the Lord, Jehovah of Hosts.
D&C 45:28-31
ReplyDelete28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
---------------------------------------------------------
"And upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets
ReplyDeleteA prophet is coming - the marred servant
DeleteProphets can and do and will come from outside the church
Can Prophets Come from Outside Church Leadership?
http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/can-prophets-come-from-outside-the-church
(some quotes from this article below)
But how would we fare if a prophet came to us today outside of the hierarchy of the Church? Would we learn from the mistakes of the past so as not to repeat them? Or would we side with the structure to which we have accustomed ourselves, thus removing the need for tackling hard questions such as determining if a person claiming a divine mandate, and chastising us for our wickedness, is in fact a prophet?
It’s instructive to note that these prophets are sent to God’s people because of general wickedness, and not necessarily corruption within church leadership. While in many cases the religious establishment had become rotten, this was not the experience of Samuel the Lamanite, whose mission came despite Nephi, and presumably others, righteously trying to do the very thing that Samuel was sent to do.
It’s irrelevant, then, whether leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are doing exactly what God wants them to or not. God can send—and perhaps has sent?—prophets outside of this organization. He would do so because of a general deviation from the path he wants us to follow. It has happened previously, so why not today? Are we so confident of our supposed righteousness, despite God himself noting that we are condemned, and our minds darkened?
--------------------------------
"When discussing prophets, we Latter-day Saints are quick to cite Amos 3:7, wherein we read, “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” But who was Amos, and what kind of prophet was he? He himself explains, to the king of Judah at the time: “I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycamore fruit. And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.” His message was likewise an excoriating, divine rebuke against church culture, criticizing tradition and ritual and calling for judgment and righteousness instead."
*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God. Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
end of article
I appreciate Anonymous (Isaiah) quoting all the scriptures. However, we need to remember the many scriptural accounts of the Lord actually warning those who will listen and leading them out. In fact the very captivity that Isaiah warned Israel of is what happened AFTER Lehi was told to leave, had traveled through the wilderness, and reached the promised land.
ReplyDeleteAnd we know that Mosiah, who was "warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi" (Omni 1:12) discovered the people of Zarahemla, who had come out of Jerusalem and were led by the Lord.
There are plenty of scriptural accounts of "call outs," which definitely sets a doctrinal precedent for a potential future call to gather. Another one I recently read was Alma and his people, who were actually apprised of when to leave on two occasions (and were apparently given only sufficient time--overnight on one occasion--to gather their flocks and grain).
I have noticed a misunderstanding among some who believe in the call-out. Some think the call-out will happen and those who go will avoid all tribulation. That is simply not true. Tribulation and affliction are the most common methods used by the Lord to sanctify his people. The New Jerusalem can only be built by a sanctified people. We can choose to become sanctified on our own, or the Lord will purify us. It should also be noted that not all the saints will go to build the New Jerusalem when that time comes, but those who do will be those who are sanctified and can, and want, to live in a Zion society.
My understanding is if there is an invitation to gather (call-out) it will be before the worst of the plagues come, and likely before an invasion of foreign forces. It will also likely happen before the worst of the natural disasters.
The call-out will not be a get-out-of-tribulation-free card that we can play. There will be trials and tribulations before, during, and even after. Even without considering the possible remnant effects from plagues, natural disasters, and other events that might come to those in the places of refuge, living long term in a tent has challenges, especially considering how used to our creature comforts we have become. I get the impression some people think it will be easy. However, it would seem that those who do choose to gather will be spared the worst of the worst.
While there are many prophetic statements and scriptures that support the gathering of the faithful, the most compelling to me is the parable of the wheat and tares, where the wheat is gathered and the tares are left.
A really easy way to separate those who are willing to follow the prophet from the less faithful would be an invitation to gather. The righteous are always invited/warned to leave. The wicked are never forced to leave. Most likely there would be a number of the faithful who would be asked to remain behind, at least for a time. I am fairly certain the call-out would be an invitation to gather, not a commandment.
[to be continued]
[continued]
ReplyDeleteI doubt food storage or any measurement of Church activity would be used as judgment to allow or prevent anyone from gathering. The greatest test of righteousness is whether someone actually follows the counsels of the prophet.
How many members have actually followed the counsel to have a year's worth of food storage? My understanding is this is a low single-digit percentage.
How many members have much in the way of emergency preparedness, or short-term (90-day) food supplies?
How many members pay a full tithe?
How many actually observe the Sabbath as a holy day, instead of as a day of recreation, athletics, or work?
How many have learned (or are learning) to follow the whisperings of the Spirit, and earnestly try to pray from their hearts?
How many priesthood holders are actively trying to obtain priesthood power, and not just have priesthood authority? (See President Nelson's priesthood session talk, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/the-price-of-priesthood-power?lang=eng)
How many members are out-of-debt, or actively working to reduce their debts as quickly as possible?
On the others side, how many members support, and even uphold, groups that are directly opposed to the Lord's doctrine, such as proponents of same-sex marriage?
How often do members say they follow the prophet, but then complain about something the prophet or an apostle said, or justify/rationalize to themselves why certain counsels don't apply to them?
How many members are pursuing the vain things of the world--money, popularity, fame, etc.--instead of the gifts of the Spirit?
How many actively seek those things which drive away the Spirit, such as most of the popular music, literature, movies, and many other forms of popular entertainment, which deaden the senses?
I don't know the numbers, but I suspect there are far more who support the same-sex and LGBT agenda than who have even three-months' worth of food storage, let alone a year's worth. It is unfortunate but to me it seems that each year more of the saints are embracing Babylon instead of bidding it farewell.
[to be continued]
[continued]
ReplyDeleteSo, if a call-out happens it will result in a very physical separation of those willing to follow the prophet and those who think they know better. And, I suspect those who truly follow the prophet, who know how to get answers from God and be guided by the Spirit, are a very small percentage of the Church membership.
And, to further separate those who aren't truly following the prophet, there will likely be a time after the initial invitation to gather when nothing big will appear to happen. Those whose hearts are not in the right place will likely give up and go home.
If the invitation to gather happens, and nothing big were to happen (calamity-wise) immediately afterwards, that would certainly be a trial of faith for many. There would be those who, like Laman and Lemuel, will say something like, "Behold, these many [weeks/months] we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance; yea, and we might have been happy" (1 Nephi 17:21). These people will likely give up and go home.
And there will be those who chose not to heed the prophet's invitation because they justify to themselves that they will just go later "if things really do get bad."
I suspect one of the minor events that will happen soon after a potential call-out would be increasing travel restrictions, possibly due to disease outbreaks. Economics may play a role as well, or maybe the unavailability or restriction of fuel. There are a number of normal appearing events that could happen which could effectively prevent or delay people from gathering later.
A really big earthquake could make vehicular travel nearly impossible, but an earthquake on its own wouldn't make people want to flee into the mountains. However, if peace keeping forces came in to restore order, and it turned out to be the wrong kind of order, people may be wishing to leave.
I also suspect those who choose later to flee will do so only with minimal equipment, many with only what they can carry or only the clothes they are wearing.
My personal thoughts are if a call-out happens, it won't be for a while. Too many people are relying on interpretations of the various visions and dreams others have had, instead of seeking guidance from the Spirit. In 3 years, how many people will have given up, lost faith in those visions, and stopped being prepared? How about 7 years from now? The Lord wants his people to trust in him. The visions of others are good, but only if they can help us get closer to the Lord.
The majority of those who have shared some of their dreams and visions do so without setting any dates, and their main message is we need to follow the prophets, including the oft-repeated counsel to get prepared. Those who do follow the prophets will continually work on their spiritual and physical preparedness, and, if a call-out happens, they will be ready to leave if the Spirit tells them to do so.
[to be continued]
If a call-out happens, those few who heed the invitation will likely be spared the bondage which will likely come. When the threat of bondage comes many will attempt to escape. Many others will have to live through the bondage in order to be purified and become willing to live in a Zion society.
ReplyDeleteHow long will that bondage last? It may be for the 3.5 years. From what I've studied regarding the great gathering and places of refuge, it could be a few years before the people return to rebuild. I suspect the reality will more likely be that while most of the country will be in bondage for a few years, there will be areas that either will not be in bondage or will only have a short time of bondage.
You should note I have used the word "if" in regards to the call-out. I personally believe it is more likely to happen than not. If it does, it could happen within the next year, 7 years from now, or even later. However, if the majority of the people were to repent and return to God the calamities which are coming, including the bondage, will be delayed until the people return to wickedness.
Something I had never considered before is the idea of packing up my food storage and supplies and leaving. I've been slowly trying to get things in better order so I could quickly pack things and leave if needed. If a call-out does happen, it will likely be only a short window to pack and go.
We are trying to prepare ourselves and our family for emergencies, but also for the possibility of leaving quickly, either with minimal emergency items or with more extensive supplies. However, we are living and making normal life decisions based on the fact that we don't know when anything will happen, and we should plan on living where we are for years. D&C 51 has good counsel in verses 16 and 17:
"And I consecrate unto them this land for a little season, until I, the Lord, shall provide for them otherwise, and command them to go hence;
"And the hour and the day is not given unto them, wherefore let them act upon this land as for years, and this shall turn unto them for their good."
While that counsel was for the saints gathering in Ohio, it is applicable to us wherever we may be. We need to trust that as long as we are trying to be guided by the Spirit, we are living where the Lord would have us. And, until the Lord guides us to do otherwise we need to "act…as for years." I interpret this as meaning we need to live by the Spirit, where we work and live and plan "as for years," and not give up employment, drop out of school, change long-term plans, run off into the mountains to hide from society falling apart, etc.
If we are following the counsels of the prophets, and living by the guidance of the Spirit, we will be physically and spiritually prepared and ready whether we remain in our homes or the Lord tells us to "go hence."
Remember, while the scripture does say, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets," it does not say that the prophets will reveal God's secrets to us. They may reveal some, but only what they are told to.
It is rare that a prophet will warn of a disaster to happen on a certain day. Of all the natural disasters and wars of the last century I'm not aware of any public warning from any of our prophets regarding a specific event to happen at a certain time. Often the warnings are more general; the real message is to repent and return to God.