Sadly, I have to agree with this assessment. I think Denver is struggling. I pray for him. I think he is very intelligent. He helped me affirm that the BoM was written for me, just as my eyes were blinking open to the light shining on the awfulness of my situation.
I hope he comes back. I also have to wonder about his last statement before he was ex'd wherein he said that we would receive the sign of the coming of the Son of Man within a year (of last September).
If the Mp is on, this may well happen. He spoke of the red dust (we all know what that is). Sols Guardisto of Cardston Temple fame spoke of it, too. The dust that poisons the open waters. At that point, springs and wells will be extremely important. I am sure the Egyptians know all about it - they experienced it just before the 50th, 50th Jubilee since Adam and Eve were expelled from the GoE. Whatever caused the havoc then, just as described in Revelations, will cause the havoc again. We stand to have some exciting times by the end of this year.
Anyway, here is the letter to Denver that I snagged from LDSFF:
Denver Snuffer:
I was excited to find your book, “The Second
Comforter”. I was looking for evidence that other Latter-day Saints (in
addition to the LDS General Authorities) had seen Christ and know that
He lives. The fact that you were not an LDS General Authority yet were
backing or sustaining the witness of dozens of LDS General Authorities
who had either seen or talked with Christ made your message valuable and
interesting. I had found many eye-witness accounts of God and Christ
in the LDS Library 2009. The thing that made your witness valuable was
the fact that it sustained the witness of all the Living Prophets since
Joseph Smith who were claiming to have had similar experiences.
Consequently,
I have found it kind of confusing and disappointing to see you slowly
turn away from your support of the Brethren. Once you stopped backing
or sustaining the Brethren and the Living Prophets, you basically undid
or threw away everything that you had accomplished before. As a result,
your message as of late lost its value because you stopped testifying
of Christ, His Church, and His Anointed Ones. Lately, the only thing
you are testifying to is how incompetent and worthless the Living
Prophets are.
Recently, I was privileged to present Lesson 8 “The
Church and Kingdom of God” to the High Priest Group in my ward. This
lesson is found in the “Joseph Fielding Smith: Teachings of the
Presidents of the Church” priesthood manual. The whole time I was
preparing and presenting that lesson, I was thinking of you. That
lesson was made just for you. It made me think of you.
As I read
some of your recent blog messages, I realized that Denver Snuffer needs
to get his nose out of the Triple Combination and the Bible and start
reading the writings of the Recent Prophets and the Living Prophet. I
realized that you had fallen for the classic satanic trap of worshipping
and following the dead prophets while collectively rejecting all of the
Living Prophets.
You have questions that you need answered, and
the answers will determine the course you should take. The next time
you see Christ, you need to ask Him, “Are you at the helm of the LDS
Church? Are you in control of the LDS Church? Is the LDS Church your
church on the earth right now? Are you guiding and leading Thomas
Monson, the First Presidency, and the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church?
Are you in control of the situation?”
If Christ tells you that
He is not in charge, is not at the helm, and is not in control, then you
need to ask Him who is. If Christ is not at the helm and the LDS
Church is not His church, then all the stuff you are fretting about in
your recent blog messages makes no bit of difference whatsoever. You
then need to ask Him which church you should join or who you need to
turn to so that you can get to the man who is really in charge and is in
full control of it all.
If Christ says that He is in charge and
at the helm of the LDS Church, is speaking to and guiding the 15
Apostles, and has everything under control and on schedule for His
Second Coming, then you have some serious repenting to do. Repentance
means course correction or choosing to go a different direction with
one's chosen beliefs or ideas. If Christ is truly at the helm and in
control of the situation, then you need a reboot. You need to start
over and see what it truly means to have Christ at the helm of His
Church.
You need to study in depth what it means to be a
helmsman. Look at that lesson mentioned above, which was built from the
writings of Joseph Fielding Smith. The helmsman of the ship has
certain responsibilities to the ship and to its crew. The helmsman is
responsible to keep the ship on course, to keep it out of the rocks, and
to guide the ship into harbor (the right harbor) on time, on budget,
safe, and sound. If the helmsman sees that the ship is off course, it
is his job to put the ship back on course. If the ship is going too
fast or too slow, it is his job to make the necessary adjustments so
that the ship arrives on time and on schedule to the desired
destination.
If Christ is truly at the helm of the LDS Church,
then it is His responsibility to set the course that the Good Ship Zion
will take, the speed or pace it will travel, and its ultimate
destination. If the Good Ship Zion gets off course, it would be the
responsibility of Christ as the helmsman to make the course corrections
necessary to put it back on course. If the Good Ship Zion is going too
slowly, then it would be the job of Christ as the Captain and helmsman
to issue the orders necessary to speed up the process. As the helmsman
of the LDS Church, only Christ knows if the Church as a whole in on
schedule and going in the right direction. If we are off course or
behind schedule, it is Christ's job to make that known to us through
His duly appointed Apostles or crew.
Who will Christ appear to or
talk to if course corrections or a change in speed is needed? Will He
talk to Denver Snuffer who is not even a member of the crew, or will He
talk to Thomas Monson or one of the Other Fourteen, in order to get the
job done? Will Christ talk to the men who hold the keys to the doors of
the Kingdom or ship, or will He talk to someone who doesn't hold the
Priesthood? If the LDS Church is really Christ's Church on this earth
right now, who do you think Christ as the helmsman will issue His orders
to in order to correct the course and speed of the Good Ship Zion? I
suggest that Christ will speak to the crew that is currently running the
Good Ship Zion. Christ would speak to the Living Prophets that He has
put into place to run His ship.
You say that you have faith in
Christ. Clearly, as an outsider, I can see that you do not have faith
in Christ. It's very easy to see the flaws of others, but nearly
impossible to see our own flaws. Remember that. Yes, you have faith
that Christ can speak to or appear to or lead Denver Snuffer or Joseph
Smith; but, you have no faith whatsoever that Jesus Christ can appear
to, speak to, and lead any of the 15 Living Apostles that currently
serve at the top of the LDS Church. Yes, you have faith that Christ can
save an imperfect Denver Snuffer or an imperfect Joseph Smith; but, you
have no faith that Christ can guide, work through, or save any of the
people on the LDS Correlation Committee. Your recent books and blog
demonstrate clearly that you have no faith whatsoever that Christ can
bring the LDS Church, its Current Imperfect Leaders, or the Good Ship
Zion into the harbor (the right harbor) on time according to His will
and pleasure, not a moment too soon and not a moment too late. You
don't have faith that Christ can do it.
You don't have faith that
Christ could possibly ever have been at the helm of the LDS Church
after Joseph Smith died. You don't have faith that Christ can bring the
Good Ship Zion into the port on time using any of the LDS Apostles that
have lived since Joseph Smith was martyred. You have no faith in
Christ. You don't believe He can do it. You don't believe that He is
in control of the Good Ship Zion. You believe that Christ and His
Church are destined to fail.
You don't believe that Christ knows
what He is doing, and you don't believe that He can save us. You only
believe that Christ can save Denver Snuffer, Joseph Smith, and the Book
of Mormon prophets. We need current salvation. The salvation of the
dead prophets isn't going to do us any good now. We need faith here and
now, not faith in the dead prophets. We need faith that Christ can
successfully lead, guide, and instruct the current batch of Prophets and
accomplish His goals through them. If we don't think He can do it,
then we really don't have faith in Christ.
Next time you see
Christ, you have some serious questions to ask Him. If Christ says that
He is not at the helm and is not in control (as you seem to imply),
then ask Him who is? Brigham Young had an interesting thing to say to
an ordinary church member who came to give Brigham instruction and
course correction for the LDS Church, information which the church
member had received from an angel. After hearing the man out, Brigham
said to the church member, “Next time you see that angel who is telling
you to correct the Prophet and the LDS Apostles and change the course of
the LDS Church, you tell that angel to go back to hell where he came
from.”
How did Brigham Young know that that angel had come from
hell? Decades ago, I used to ask that question. How did Brigham know?
It's because Brigham Young knew that if it were an angel from Heaven
and Christ, the angel would have appeared to Brigham Young or one of the
Twelve Apostles, not the ordinary church member. If Christ is truly at
the helm, Christ is going to work through the chain of command that He
has set in place. Christ is going to work through His chosen crew. If
Christ is truly at the helm, then Christ is directly responsible to make
sure that it all turns out the way He wants it to turn out. The
responsibility is His, not Denver Snuffer's or some ordinary church
member who is seeing angels or hearing voices.
I remember my
mother telling me how surprised she was when Harold B. Lee died. He was
young and healthy and well-liked, and they all expected him to be the
prophet for 20 years. Recently, I was reading and came across a
statement that Harold B. Lee allegedly had made. He said something to
the effect, “No darkie will ever receive the priesthood while I'm
President of the LDS Church.” Suddenly I had my answer. The Lord
removed him so that He could put Spencer W. Kimball into his place
instead. The Lord is at the helm, and it was finally time for the
Blacks to receive the priesthood. The only obstacle was Harold B. Lee
and Latter-day Saints like him who held that point of view.
When I
was young, the thing I hated most about the LDS church was its refusal
to give the Blacks the Priesthood. Ironically, David O. McKay had asked
the Lord many times for permission to give the priesthood to the
blacks; but, the Lord had said no. The Lord said to David to never to
ask Him ever again. The Lord said it would happen, but not under David
O. McKay's tenure. So, what was happening? The Lord was at the time
preparing ready-made LDS congregations on the African continent. The
Lord was also raising up a new generation of Latter-day Saints who knew
not prejudice.
When the Blacks were given the priesthood, I
celebrated. In contrast, an elderly LDS Bishop at the time told me of
his disgust. He hated seeing them niggers in the LDS temples. He was
from that previous generation who would never have accepted the Blacks
receiving the priesthood, if they had anything to say about it. The
Lord had to raise up a new generation of Latter-day Saints who were
ready and eager for the change. The Lord was at the helm and knew what
He was doing. The timing was His. It happened when it did for a
reason, and not a moment sooner.
I also heard the story of when
both Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were called as members of
the Twelve. Ezra Taft Benson was known for his punctuality, but he was
late for his ordination, because his car just mysteriously stopped
working for awhile and then started working again. So, he was late, and
Spencer W. Kimball was ordained an Apostle before Ezra Taft Benson was.
Spencer Kimball ended up with seniority; and, we know what happened as
a result. Do you think somebody was at the helm?
If Christ is
truly at the helm of the LDS Church, then you can relax and stop
fretting and stop kicking against the pricks. If Christ is at the helm,
then it is His responsibility to bring the LDS Church successfully to
its destination on time and in the condition He wants it to be in,
despite all the frailties of the Church's leadership past or present.
If Christ is not at the helm, then none of it matters anyway, and we
need to look to someone else for our salvation.
If Christ is at
the helm, it is His responsibility to speak to, appear to, and work
through the current 15 Apostles, or it is His responsibility to get some
new Apostles that He can work with. You don't need to worry about any
of that if Christ is truly at the helm. You don't need to worry about
any of that if you truly have faith in Christ. All you have to do is
simply trust and believe that Christ will get the Good Ship Zion to His
desired destination, on time and in the condition that He wants it to be
in when it arrives. You can simply sit back, relax, repent of your
sins and misconceptions, and sustain the work all the while trusting
that Christ is in control and will bring Zion to fruition at His own
speed and time.
If Christ is truly at the helm, truly in control
of the Ark of the Covenant, then there is no need for Denver Snuffer to
steady the Ark or to course correct the LDS Church and its leaders.
That should take a great burden off of you. You can simply relax, sit
back, and let Christ handle it all and the timing of it all. You can
just simply trust that He will get it all done by the time that He wants
it all done. That's what faith in Christ really means.
If
Christ wants the work to go faster, then simply trust that Christ will
tell Thomas Monson to start letting High School graduates go on missions
before they have the chance to get married or get buried in school
work, and then see if that will speed up the work. If Christ is truly
at the helm and you truly have faith in Christ, then Denver Snuffer
doesn't have to worry about any of this. Denver Snuffer simply has to
repent and make sure that he is on the Good Ship Zion when Christ brings
it safely into harbor. If Christ isn't at the helm, then you need to
find someone else to worship and serve.
So once again, I ask, “Is
Christ at the helm of the LDS Church or isn't He?” Denver, most of
your recent writings and comments seem to indicate that you firmly
believe that Christ is not at the helm of the LDS Church and is not in
control of the situation. Therefore, I don't see how it is even
remotely possible for you to have real faith in Christ if you truly
believe that Christ is out of control, that Christ is not at the helm of
the LDS Church, and that Christ is powerless to bring Zion to fruition
on His own time schedule and on His own terms and in the condition He
wants it to be in when it finally arrives.
It is impossible for
you to have faith in Christ and the Restored Gospel if you truly believe
that Christ is incapable of speaking to, chastising, correcting, and
guiding the LDS Apostles. Denver, your recent messages and books seem
to indicate that you no longer believe that Christ is capable of working
through the current LDS General Authorities to accomplish His goals and
desires for us. You no longer believe in Christ because you no longer
believe that He has the power and skills necessary to bring forth Zion
among the weak and imperfect Latter-day Saints. You don't believe that
Christ can save us, change us, help us, speak to us, or perfect us. You
don't believe that Christ can keep the LDS Church on course and on
schedule. You don't believe in Christ enough to actually repent, turn
back to Christ, accept His Gospel and His ongoing Restoration, and
accept the Anointed Ones that He has put into place. You don't believe
in Christ.
If you truly believed in Christ, there would be a
repentance process taking place in your life right now, because that's
the next step after having Faith in Christ. Instead, you are slowly
moving into all-out rebellion, which is the opposite of repentance or
turning back to God and His Chosen Ones. You can't see it because we
each are blind to our own faults and imperfections; but, many of us on
the outside looking in on Denver Snuffer can see it quite clearly.
Assuming Facts Not in Evidence:
Denver,
you probably can't see it; but, you are starting to slip away.
Nowadays, you are constantly assuming facts that are not in evidence.
If you were a self-critical or self-observant lawyer, you wouldn't allow
yourself or permit yourself to repeatedly make such a mistake; but, you
have fallen into bias and have become blind to some things as a result.
You
are constantly claiming in your recent blog messages that modern-day
LDS leaders have not made a sacrifice sufficient enough to earn a
theophany, or a calling and election made sure, or the second comforter,
or a heavenly manifestation – as if such a thing can actually be earned
or forced upon the Lord. Recently, you are repeatedly making the
claim that they are not good enough or worthy enough for such an
experience, as if you are passing judgment or final condemnation on
them, which is not your right or responsibility to do.
Whenever
one of us passes final judgment on someone by saying that they are going
to hell or aren't going to make it, we are in fact denying the First
Principle of the Gospel. Each time you say or indicate that Christ
cannot save, change, correct, speak to, or improve Thomas Monson or any
of the other LDS General Authorities, you are denying Christ's atonement
and saying that Christ is powerless to save us and change us. You are
saying that Christ lacks the ability to bring Heaven on earth. You are
saying that you have no faith in Christ. Satan is called the Accuser.
Satan's primary accusation is that Christ lacks the power to save us and
lacks the power necessary to establish Zion on earth. Satan spends his
time accusing the Brethren and Christ of failure, because Satan lacks
faith in Christ. Satan spends his time calling everyone else
incompetent.
In your many blog messages and recent books, you
assume that Christ cannot and has not appeared to any LDS General
Authorities since Joseph Smith. You cannot assume the negative, simply
because these men have never come out and made such a spectacular claim
in public; yet, for some unexplained reason, you insist on doing so
every chance you get. Just because they refuse to toot their own horn,
doesn't automatically mean that they don't have a horn to toot.
Furthermore, the fact that they have made such claims in private and
those claims have slipped out over time should be sufficient evidence to
contradict your claims to the contrary; but, you are now currently
blinded or biased against such claims, so you can't benefit from them as
a result. You simply call it all hearsay, which only serves to negate
or kill many of your own claims to divine inspiration.
It's
simply poor practice and very poor research to assume that no LDS
General authority since Joseph Smith has seen God or talked with Him
face to face, and to conclude that they have all been rejected by the
Lord as a result. That's assuming facts not in evidence while at the
same time blindly and deliberately ignoring all the evidence to the
contrary. I was there in General Priesthood Meeting when President
Spencer W. Kimball publicly told the LDS Church Priesthood that he had
seen Christ. We knew what he said, and I believed him when he said it.
If
you (a nobody by your own original admission) have seen Christ, then
the proper assumption to make (since we are making assumptions now) is
that dozens of Latter-day Saints and LDS General Authorities since
Joseph Smith have seen Christ and talked with Him face-to-face, and been
accepted by Him. If you are going to make assumptions or assume facts
not in evidence, assume the positive and not the negative; it will get
you further in the end. Furthermore, your personal claims of having
seen Christ and the journal entries of dozens of Latter-day Saints
indicate that the positive assumption is closer to the truth than the
negative assumption that you keep making. If you are going to assume,
assume the positive.
To See As We Are Seen:
Denver, can't
you see that each time you claim that the Prophets since Joseph Smith
could not have and did not have any kind of contact with God, it only
serves to bolster the claim that Denver Snuffer could not have and did
not have any kind of personal experience with Jesus Christ. That's the
way your current writings are coming across to many of us. Every time
you attack the current Apostles, your words and preachings sound more
and more hollow and valueless and hypocritical as you go along. The
only value of your message was that it sustained and substantiated the
message that was being delivered by the current living Apostles of the
LDS Church. Once your message stopped doing so, it lost its value to
most of us. Once you stopped edifying the Brethren, your message
stopped being edifying.
Can't you see that by assuming that you
are the first and only person since Joseph Smith to have seen Christ and
talked with Christ, you are simply assuming facts that are not in
evidence? Can't you see that if only one of them (even Denver Snuffer)
has seen the Resurrected Christ, then most of your claims in “Passing
the Heavenly Gift” simply fall flat and dead on the floor?
Whenever you shoot the Brethren in the foot, you are shooting yourself in the foot as well. Can't you see that?
Can't
you see that many of your online followers are claiming that you are
the first true Prophet since Joseph Smith? Can't you see that some of
them think that you are the Second Coming of Christ? The fact that you
haven't made any recent attempts to set them straight makes many of us
believe that you want your followers believing and preaching such things
about you. It also explains to many of us why the directive came down
from the Top to have you and some of your followers excommunicated from
the LDS Church. Many of your followers are out of control, and it
reflects badly on you as their chosen leader. Can't you see that you
have started your own little cult or splinter group, the Snufferites,
whether you purposefully wanted to do so or not? Can't you see that you
are personally responsible for what you have started? As their leader,
you are responsible for them and for the path you have chosen to lead
them down.
Can't you see that your most dedicated followers have
taken up the task that you have set for them – constantly complaining
about the Brethren and bemoaning all the failures and lost opportunities
that can be traced to the Brethren?
Well, we can see it. My
question is whether you wanted it that way, or not. Either way, by
their fruits (and nuts), ye shall know them. Your followers are a
reflection of you, their leader.
An Observation:
I
have observed that the quickest way to lose your LDS Church job or to
lose your LDS Church membership is to develop a following and then have
some of your followers start saying that you are the only True Prophet
since Joseph Smith.
Many seminary teachers, institute teachers,
and even some LDS General Authorities lost their Church Jobs when they
started to develop a following and when some of their followers started
to claim that they were the only true prophet since Joseph Smith. Many
splinter groups started when a person's followers started to claim that
that person is the first true Prophet since Joseph Smith.
This
explains to me why the directive came down from the top to have you
excommunicated without giving you much of a hearing. It might not have
had anything to do with what you did, but everything to do with what
your followers are doing. You are being judged by the fruits you are
producing.
Over on the LDS Freedom Forum and elsewhere, they have
exclusive forums dedicated just to you; and, many of your followers
there are claiming publicly that you are the only True Prophet since
Joseph Smith. Some of them are now being excommunicated as a result.
When
your followers no longer sustain the LDS Apostles as Prophets, Seers,
and Revelators, then your followers are no longer worthy of a temple
recommend and are no longer really members of the LDS Church in their
hearts. When they refuse to sustain Thomas S. Monson as the President
of the Church, the holder of the Corporate Keys and the holder of the
Celestial Priesthood Keys, then your followers are no longer LDS or
Mormon in their hearts; and thus, they are in apostasy and ripe for
excommunication. By their fruits, ye shall know them.
Many of
your followers are now being excommunicated for losing their testimony
of the Brethren and for no longer being able to honestly answer during
their temple recommend interviews that they sustain the LDS Apostles as
Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Obviously, their chosen beliefs
reflect directly on you, their leader, as the one they have chosen to
follow now instead of following the Brethren. The apostasy and
excommunication of your followers is now serving as the fruits of your
teachings, which tells me that somewhere along the way, you got off
track, and started working against yourself and your original message.
If
you really saw Christ, then you should already know that it was because
of the Priesthood and the Endowment that you had received through the
direct line of all those imperfect Brethren or Priesthood Holders who
came before you. God honored the Priesthood and sacrifices of all those
imperfect and faulty men that you claim “Passed Up the Heavenly Gift”;
and, if God appeared to you, it was because He was honoring the
Priesthood and Endowment of all those imperfect men who came before you
and brought the Priesthood and the Endowment to you. It's not because
of some kind of special righteousness or sacrifice on your part. As
mortal beings, none of us are truly worthy of a personal appearance from
God. If we have such an experience, it's because of Christ's grace,
not because of our worthiness or sacrifices.
Have you ever
noticed that God and angels tend to appear to the foreordained who have
gotten off track – Saul, Alma the Younger, the Sons of Mosiah, the
Brother of Jared, Denver Snuffer? God doesn't have to appear to the
ones who remain on track. God simply has to whisper to them through the
Holy Ghost, and they immediately obey. It's a law of conservation.
God will not appear to you with trumpets, thunder, and lightning, if the
whisperings of the Holy Ghost are sufficient enough to get the job
done. Yes, the Heavenly Messengers had to appear to Joseph Smith and
Oliver Cowdery to transfer and restore KEYS; but, when Christ or angels
appear to any of us or speak to any of us, it's for other reasons –
mercy and grace come to mind. Fore-ordination comes to mind. Getting
off track comes to mind as well.
I suggest that Christ doesn't
have to appear to many of the LDS Apostles and wake them from their
slumber, because they haven't gotten off track and the whisperings of
the Holy Ghost are good enough to get the job done. But then again, we
are assuming facts not in evidence and assuming that Christ has not
appeared to any of these men, when in fact, He actually has; and they
have said that He has. Nevertheless, the truth is that Christ doesn't
have to reward these men with a theophany when a full helping of the
Holy Ghost is sufficient enough reward to demonstrate that Christ has
fully accepted their meager offering. There is plenty of evidence to
suggest that the Spirit of the Lord has rested upon these men
abundantly, from time to time, and from one generation to the next. All
you have to do is be willing to open your eyes and see it.
The
Brethren were able to see the fruits that your efforts are currently
producing among many of your followers, and the Spirit was strong enough
within them to let them know that they had to nip it in the bud before
it got even more out of control than it has already gotten. They could
see that you and many of your followers were on the road to apostasy.
They saw it long before I saw it. That tells me that the LDS General
Authorities are still in touch with God and the true reality of things.
Your Greatest Flaw or Weakness:
Denver,
I saw this in your first book, and it has only gotten worse with time.
You are fascinated or fixated on collecting and expounding all the
different ways that the Brethren since Joseph Smith have failed.
Instead of making a list of all the times that they got it right and
were accepted by the Lord, you have focused all your time and effort on
collecting and documenting all the times that they failed the Lord. The
result or consequences follow naturally. You have developed a bias;
and, now you are only capable of seeing the times that they have failed,
and are becoming incapable of seeing or accepting all the many times
that they have succeeded and gotten it right. Ironically, you seem to
refuse to apply the same 'judgment' or criteria to Joseph Smith; and
because Joseph Smith was the first and because Joseph Smith was so very
honest, it's extremely easy so see all the hundreds of different times
that he failed, which of course makes all the times that he gets is
right all that much more amazing.
A suggestion: You are still in
the habit of collecting and looking for all the times that Joseph Smith
and the Book of Mormon prophets got it right, while at the same time
blindly overlooking their failures and weaknesses; so, I encourage you
to apply the same principle and process to the Living Prophets and the
Prophets who have lived since Joseph Smith. It would save you a great
deal of trouble in the long run.
SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND. It's a
true principle. You found exactly what you were searching for. If you
seek for all the times that the Prophets since Joseph Smith got it
wrong; you will find exactly what you seek. The opposite is true as
well. Seek for the times when they got it right; and, before you know
it, you will start to find dozens and hundreds and thousands of times
when they got it right and were accepted by the Lord. The evidence is
there. You only have to be willing to open your eyes and see. “Forgive
us, for we know not what we do.”
Have you ever heard the statement that too much of a good thing is a bad thing?
You
have rightly noticed that Nephi, Paul, and others warned that in the
last days, there would be some who would be saying, “All is well in
Zion”, when such is not the case. You have latched on to this and
fixated on this and, to your own condemnation, have taken it all the way
to the opposite extreme and have started to make the exact opposite
claim, “Nothing is well in Zion”, which is also not true.
When
dealing with people and populations and nations, the truth is never at
the extremes, but always somewhere in the middle. That's just the way
population dynamics work. Among the thousands of failures, there will
always be some who get it right. Look for the positive, not the
negative. Why do you feel obsessively compelled to support the claim
that “Nothing is well in Zion” or “Nothing is well in the Councils of
the LDS Church?” Where is that coming from? Who is the one that they
call the “Accuser of his Brethren?”
You Are in Good Company (Numbers 12):
Olivery
Cowdery, Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Sydney Rigdon, Orson Pratt,
Orson Hyde, Aaron (Numbers 12), and now Denver Snuffer. Each one of
these men turned against the First Elder or the President of the LDS
Church, to one degree or another; and, each left the LDS Church or was
excommunicated or was chastised as a result. Some of these men saw
Christ. Others saw angels. They were each Prophets of the Lord; but,
they were not The Prophet. When they turned against The Living Prophet,
Joseph Smith (Thomas Monson or Moses), that was the end of their
Priesthood and the end of their Church membership, unless they speedily
repented. Even if they weren't excommunicated, they were no longer
members of the church in their hearts and were no longer accepted by the
Lord. Then the process was to wait and see which of them would choose
to repent and come back, and which of them would not. Denver, you find
yourself in the same boat. You seem to think that you are a special
case or something unique, but you are not. Others have been there long
before you were.
Eventually, Oliver Cowdery and some of the
others realized that the Lord was no longer speaking to them, realized
that they had lost their Priesthood authority, and they humbled
themselves and came back. In many of the forums online, your followers
are simply assuming that Christ is still speaking to you and appearing
to you. I assume (since you like to assume facts not in evidence),
given your recent comments against the Brethren and your recent
excommunication, that the exact opposite has happened; and, the Lord has
stopped speaking with you and speaking through you. When you finally
realize that such is the case, it would do your followers well if you
were to come out and say so, just as Oliver Cowdery and some of the
others before you did.
You are definitely not the first LDS
'apostle' or special witness to turn against the Brethren or the Living
Prophet and be excommunicated as a result. You won't be the last.
Having seen Christ is not a protection against these kinds of things.
Having seen Christ doesn't exempt you from the need to humbly submit to
and follow the Lord's duly anointed and authorized Servants, who hold
all the KEYS to the Priesthood and to your exaltation as well. No
matter how much you might hate them right now, not only do they hold the
KEYS to the Priesthood, but they also hold the keys to the doors of the
institution or corporation itself.
If you spit on them and
reject them, you are not only rejecting the Heavenly KEYS that they
currently hold, but the earthly or man-made physical keys to LDS church
buildings and LDS temples as well. You are rejecting Christ who gave
them the KEYS.
Whether they are perfect or not, whether they have
had theophanies or not, whether they have seen the Lord or not, they
hold the KEYS to the Celestial Kingdom as well as the Keys to the doors
of the temple and church buildings. The Kingdom is currently theirs,
and you will only become a part of it by accepting them and sustaining
them as the Key Holders that they really are. They currently hold the
keys to all the doors that you want to pass through, or that I assume
you want to pass through.
Again, I am following your example of
assuming facts that are clearly not in evidence. In reality, on your
blog, you seem to be enjoying your recent excommunication greatly and
treating it as some kind of new special status. But, to many of us out
here in the rank and file, you simply look like another Oliver Cowdery
or Martin Harris or Sydney Rigdon, and nothing more. They lost their
special status when they turned against the First Elder of the Church.
You have Oliver Cowdery written all over you, except for the fact that
none of the KEYS to the Kingdom were ever given to you.
Alas, in
your most recent blog messages, you say that you have no further desire
to pass through the door into the Kingdom of God on earth ever again.
If that is truly the case, then let it go. Go find something else to do
with your time. That would be my advice. You are not going to change
the KEYS or the key-holders or Christ to fit your needs or your mold or
your expectations. It is what it is. So, either accept it, or give it
up.
If you are still in there, then look up Numbers 12, and liken
the scripture unto Denver Snuffer. Put yourself in the place of Aaron
or Miriam. See what you can learn.
Passing Up the Heavenly Gifts:
If you really love Joseph Smith, keep his commandments.
Joseph
Smith wrote this commandment: “If there is anything virtuous, lovely,
or of good report or praiseworthy, seek after these things.”
What
Joseph Smith is saying here is that if you are determined to cultivate
and nurture a bias, make absolutely sure that it is a positive bias, and
not a negative one. Joseph Smith isn't against you developing a bias,
just as long as you make sure that it is the right kind of bias.
The
book, “Passing the Heavenly Gift”, is a blatant and obvious violation
of this commandment from Joseph Smith. In that book (and some of your
other books), if there is anything filthy, ugly, scandalous, or
uncomplementary about the LDS Church leaders, Denver Snuffer has sought
after and published those things.
In your books, you seemed to
follow a pattern. You started with the sacred and were careful with the
sacred. Then over time, you slowly transformed until nothing was
sacred and everything was profane. Many of us have noticed and
regretted the transformation.
For many of us, “Passing the
Heavenly Gift” also violates other commandments that we have received
from Joseph Smith, namely the temple covenant to avoid evil speaking of
the Lord's anointed. That commandment is in the temple covenant for a
reason, so that we won't end up with books like “Passing the Heavenly
Gift”.
All across the internet, “Passing the Heavenly Gift”, is
often described as a mean book or an ugly book, by the active members of
the LDS Church. They agree that the scandalous events happened, but
they disagree with your interpretation of the meaning of those events or
your claimed consequences for those events. Something is not quite
right about that book and the person who wrote it.
“Passing the
Heavenly Gift” basically denies the power and the spirit of the
Atonement of Christ by stating that Christ does not have enough power to
compensate for all our failures in the past and all our failures that
we will make in the future, particularly the failures of our LDS
leaders. By indirectly (and sometimes purposefully) stating that
Christ's Atonement isn't strong enough to compensate for and forgive all
the failures of the LDS Church Leadership to date, that's a denial of
the First Principle of the Gospel. It shows a lack of faith in Christ
and His Atonement.
Can't you see that “Passing the Heavenly Gift”
undid and destroyed most of what you tried to accomplish before that
book was written? You shot yourself in the foot with that one, leaving
you nothing to stand on.
Can't you see that the person many of us
think is truly passing up all the heavenly gifts that he has been given
is Denver Snuffer?
Christ is either at the helm, or He isn't.
Which is it? If Christ is at the helm of the LDS Church and has been at
the helm all the way along, then Christ bears some responsibility for
our failures by simply refusing to intervene before we got too far off
track. It's Christ's responsibility to keep us on track and on course,
if He is at the helm – that's what being at the helm means. If Christ
is at the helm, it's Christ's responsibility to speak to the LDS
Apostles, or to get Himself some new LDS Apostles that He can speak to.
Furthermore,
it's Christ's job to judge whether we have failed or succeeded, not
Denver Snuffer's job. Christ is the one who paid and is paying for our
failures, not Denver Snuffer. It's Christ's job to pass final judgment
on the LDS Church and its leadership, not Denver's.
Denver, you
claim to follow and preach the pure teachings of Joseph Smith. I have
just offered and listed a handful of different ways in which you have
obviously failed to follow and employ the teachings of Joseph Smith. I
don't think Joseph Smith would have approved of your book, “Passing the
Heavenly Gift”. I think that book would have been a great
disappointment to him.
Joseph Smith's primary goal was to
establish Zion. In your book “Passing the Heavenly Gift”, you imply
that establishing Zion cannot be done. You keep implying that Christ is
powerless to establish Zion using the current batch of imperfect
Latter-day Saints that He has to work with. You do not have faith in
Christ that He can do it. Joseph Smith said that Christ would do it,
that Christ would establish Zion on this earth before the Second Coming;
and then comes along Denver Snuffer who says that it can't be done.
Denver keeps saying that it's not happening and that it can't be done,
certainly not through the Church Correlation Committee or the current
batch of LDS Apostles.
Turning Against the Key Holders Has Consequences:
Remember,
biting the hand that feeds you will only get you so far. Eventually,
the owner of the hand will turn against you and may even bite you back.
You spew evil and filth and accusations out against the LDS Prophets
and Apostles who lived after Joseph Smith, and then you act surprised or
hurt when they finally decide to fight back. If you bomb them enough
times, don't keep expecting them to turn the other cheek. At one point,
one of them is going to simply slap you up the side of your head and
see how willing you are to turn the other cheek.
Notice the real
History of the LDS Church and the Kingdom of God in general. From our
perspective, it goes all the way back to the time of Joseph Smith.
Whenever a person or his followers turn against the President of the
Church or the LDS Apostles, the President of the Church and the Church
itself acts quickly and decisively and excommunicates that person and
his followers from the Church. And yes, they often excommunicate the
person before he can walk away of his own free will and choice.
Failure
to excommunicate the dissidents in the Primitive Church was one of the
main reasons why the Primitive Church fell into the Great Apostasy.
Paul, Peter, James, John, and some of the Original Apostles should have
excommunicated many of the Bishops and their followers, if they truly
wanted to keep the Ancient Church intact. Following the Brethren and
sustaining the Brethren is essential for the success of the Church as a
whole.
In fact, this principle has precedence and goes back to
the pre-existence, where the followers of Satan refused to sustain God
the Father, the-then-current President and Prophet of the Church and His
counselors. (People keep saying that there isn't going to be a Church
in heaven, but there is going to be some kind of an organization,
because God's House is a house of order or organization.)
If you
don't want to stay in the Church or Kingdom, God isn't going to force
you to stay. God showed Satan and his followers the door, and they
walked though it of their own free will and choice, and found themselves
on the outside separated from God and His Church. God the Father holds
the KEYS to all the doors; and, you have to come in by the right way
and stay in, if you want the rewards. To the great dismay of a third of
the hosts of heaven, God the Father, the Holder of the KEYS, chose to
share those KEYS with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has now chosen to
share those KEYS with Thomas S. Monson and the LDS Apostles, much to the
dismay of a third part of the Latter-day Saints. The true History
repeats itself.
In fact, if we go by the True History of things,
we could predict in advance that up to one third of the Latter-day
Saints (one third of the modern-day LDS Church members during the
temporal history of the Latter-day Saints past, present and future) will
refuse to sustain the-then-current church leadership, and will leave
the Church or be excommunicated as a result. Just like what happened in
the pre-existence among the Church members of the time will happen
again among the LDS Church members in our era – up to a third of them
will fail to sustain the Brethren and will be separated from the Church
as a result. It is and will be an example of history repeating itself.
The LDS church leaders take these things seriously, and they act
quickly and decisively and often unilaterally, where failure to sustain
the Brethren is concerned.
Satan and his followers rejected the
Brethren, God the Father and Jesus Christ, and now those pre-mortal
fallen apostates no longer have access to the KEYS that God and Christ
hold. The same process holds true today. If you reject the Brethren,
you automatically reject the KEYS that they currently hold. You might
have legitimate reasons for rejecting the Brethren, but the results are
still the same, whether your complaints are legitimate or not. Those
who rejected Joseph Smith or currently reject Joseph Smith believe that
they have legitimate reasons for doing so; but, the result was to
separate those rebels from the KEYS that Joseph held and still holds.
The same thing applies here and now, with Thomas S. Monson. You may
think your cause or complaints just, but the result is still the same,
separation from the Brethren who currently hold the KEYS.
In any
age of the Church or Kingdom of God, right from the very beginning, if
you don't want to sustain the current Prophet of the Church or His
Chosen Servants, you are shown the door and asked to leave. That's just
the way it works. It doesn't matter if you like the current Prophet or
not, or like His plans, or not, or think He has succeeded or not, or
think He is good or not, or think he has failed or not, or think your
complaint legitimate or not; once you turn away from THE CURRENT
PROPHET, you have in effect turned against God the Father, and soon you
find yourself on the outside looking in. It just happens.
Refusing to sustain the Brethren leads to separation from the Brethren, because you are no longer going where they are going.
Conclusions:
Sorry
Denver, but I'm not going to join you in disaffection with the
Brethren, apostasy, and excommunication from the Church. Been there;
done that. It wasn't taking me where I wanted to go; so, I had to do a
180 degree turn around and go the other direction. I love my current
local church leadership; and, I like most of the LDS General Authorities
and sustain them fully. The few that I disagree with only serves to
show my personal weaknesses and the areas where I need further
repentance and course correction.
No, I'm not blind. I can see
instances where the LDS General Authorities throughout time have failed
to get it right, but that observation serves no useful purpose.
Although, let me give you one example, which might help. In one of the
recent General Conferences, one of the LDS Apostles said some things
that weren't doctrine. Advanced age does some horrible things to each
one of us. After his speech, my wife said, “That didn't feel right.” I
responded, “It wasn't right.” I then told her how and where he had
gotten it wrong. A few days later, his speech was corrected and changed
so that it was closer to true doctrine. The cool thing is that if one
of the LDS Apostles get off track, he has fourteen other LDS Apostles
who can step in and rectify the situation. Someone like Denver Snuffer
doesn't have that kind of backup for all the times that Denver gets
things wrong.
Yes, we can do as you have done and dwell upon all
the times that the LDS Apostles have gotten it wrong; but, what's the
point? What is of value to me is all the thousands and millions of
times that they have gotten it perfectly right, especially when they
have gotten it right pertaining to my life and my family's life.
If
you choose to be be blind, be blind to the negatives, not the
positives. Doubt your doubts. Read a book like “Believing Christ” by
Stephen E. Robinson and see that Christ has the power to forgive even
the worst leaders and sinners and failures among us.
What He
cannot forgive is your personal refusal to repent and come back. If you
don't want to come back, there's nothing He can do to help you. He
can't force you to change course and can't force you to come back. He's
not going to force you to return if you really don't want to return. A
lack of desire is the real unpardonable sin, because Christ cannot
instill within you a desire to sustain the Brethren where there is none.
That's something that only you can do for yourself. Christ cannot
overcome an entrenched lack of desire on your part.
When I
decided to come back into the Church, I first had to be willing to meet
them half way. I had to go to them, and I had to let them come to me.
Then I needed to develop a desire to come back. Then I had to make some
changes. I then had to regain my testimony of the Brethren, Christ,
and the Gospel. The process is the same for all of us, who decide to
turn around, repent, and come back into the Kingdom and the fold.
The
LDS Church (and the Church of God) is a Kingdom, not a democracy. They
run it as if it were a kingdom. Right now, Thomas S. Monson is the
king (regent is a more accurate term, but the analogy holds). Sustain
the current king and his chosen lords, and you'll be just fine. Stand
against them, and you will find yourself on the outside looking in.
Can't
you see that evil speaking of Thomas S. Monson, David O. MacKay, the
current LDS Apostles, the current LDS General Authorities, or their
chosen courses of action is the same exact thing as evil speaking
against Joseph Smith, Nephi, Moses, Mormon, or Jesus Christ?
Evil
speaking of the Lord's Anointed results in being separated from the
Lord's anointed. It has been that way throughout the whole history of
the Kingdom of God, from the very beginning. First your heart and
beliefs are separated from these men. Then your membership in the
Church community is separated from them. Then your desire to return
leaves. Then eventually you are or will be physically separated from
them as well. If you don't want to be with them and be a part of them,
God won't force you to stay. God, the King, will simply show you the
door and invite you to leave. God always gives us what we want most.
Best of luck to you Denver Snuffer,
A Former Follower and Collector of Your Books
THIS BLOG ATTEMPTS TO SHOW HOW SCIENCE IS CATCHING UP WITH REVEALED RELIGION
THIS BLOG IS AN ATTEMPT TO PUT ALL THE COOL STUFF THAT I BUMP INTO ABOUT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND EVENTS THAT LEAD UP TO IT INTO ONE LOCATION.
THE CONTENTS WILL BE FROM AN LDS PERSPECTIVE. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING IN HERE, I DO NOT PARTICULARLY CARE TO ARGUE, UNLESS YOU CAN ADD TO THIS BODY OF WORK. I HAVE AN OPEN MIND, THAT IS WHY I READ STUFF FROM ALL DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND SEEK LEARNING FROM THE BEST BOOKS. I JUST AM NOT HERE TO ARGUE ABOUT IT - BUT TO PUT IT OUT THERE WHERE OTHERS CAN PERUSE/PURSUE IT. I TAKE PARTICULAR INTEREST IN HONEST SEEKERS OF TRUTH AND BELIEVE THAT SCIENCE IS REVEALED RELIGION'S BEST ALLY. YOU WILL SEE ALOT OF TOPICS IN THIS BLOG THAT SHOW SCIENCE BACKING - AND SLOWLY CATCHING UP WITH - REVEALED RELIGION.
ENJOY!!
THE CONTENTS WILL BE FROM AN LDS PERSPECTIVE. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING IN HERE, I DO NOT PARTICULARLY CARE TO ARGUE, UNLESS YOU CAN ADD TO THIS BODY OF WORK. I HAVE AN OPEN MIND, THAT IS WHY I READ STUFF FROM ALL DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND SEEK LEARNING FROM THE BEST BOOKS. I JUST AM NOT HERE TO ARGUE ABOUT IT - BUT TO PUT IT OUT THERE WHERE OTHERS CAN PERUSE/PURSUE IT. I TAKE PARTICULAR INTEREST IN HONEST SEEKERS OF TRUTH AND BELIEVE THAT SCIENCE IS REVEALED RELIGION'S BEST ALLY. YOU WILL SEE ALOT OF TOPICS IN THIS BLOG THAT SHOW SCIENCE BACKING - AND SLOWLY CATCHING UP WITH - REVEALED RELIGION.
ENJOY!!
I dont see any where in the following qoute where Snuffer said this would happen in the coming year.
ReplyDelete"When the Seed of the Woman was born, a new star appeared in the heavens. In like manner, when the Lion of Judah returns, as with his first coming, there will be a new star seen. All the world will note its appearance and shall be troubled at its meaning. When it makes its appearance, you may know His return is soon upon the world. You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant."
This guy the author of this letter is either a fool or an ass. D'S is definitely going further down the path of apostasy but this guy is a blind follower and trusts to much in the arm of flesh. The church is the Lord's but ran by men and sustained by followers who do the same. If you believe in the setting in order then wouldn't the church of the Lord have to be out of order I strongly disagree with a lot of positions of the church since 1890 plural marriage United order butchering the garment and then the endowment 1978. On and on it is still the Lord's church and the church as a body makes choices and we try to say it's his will. Maybe but then it may be said he is setting us up for failure . Did he want Moses and the children to wonder in the wilderness for 40 years or did they choose a course and therefore received a more challenging road they we're still his people but stubborn and unwilling to keep him first in there lives. And for no other reason then this guy saying get your nose out of the Scriptures and study the words of the 15 new prophets. But wait what happens when these current 15 die there words are dead and of no value because there is a new 15. That's just the beginning of my rant but I will stop before I become an ass. I will say any one who follows Denver or any one else for that matter blindly deserves the reward they will reap. Trust in God and him alone!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for posting this. I once ventured on to LDSFF out of curiosity because I had never heard of it. I wish I could take that moment back. I have since not been back. I needed to read this letter. It spoke straight to my heart and I felt the Spirit incredibly strong. Again, thank you.
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