I ran into one of these elect ladies from work once. Great gal. We had worked together for years on a couple of small process improvement projects. I told her what I thought her origins might be - and she was having none of it. I stayed out of arms reach - just in case...... She was horribly offended at the idea that Jesus could have a wife, let alone anything to do with the process of having children. Too much of a freak show for her. Joseph Smith said that sometimes our biggest stumbling block is that we simply do not have enough of a capacity to believe enough.
We need to be more believing. Period.
Here is what another blogger that I admire had to say on the subject:
Subject: We believe in Revelation
Eric Smith is an amazing blogger. This blog in particular, directed to us members, is rather exceptional.
Sunday, September 20, 2015
Dear Church Members
For years I have believed a day of division in our church was coming. But I always supposed it would be over some controversial political issue, like we have seen in the recent past. Perhaps those issues have caused some division, but I believe there is another division taking place that is closer to the heart of the gospel than those issues. It tugs at the heart and soul of the latter-day church, and the experience of a young boy who knew he could receive divine guidance if he asked for it. Following his miraculous vision, he told his experience to his minister and got the following reaction: "he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them." (Joseph Smith - History 1:21)
I believe in a church built upon the ministration of angels, visions, prophecy, and direct communication from heaven. How grateful I am to know revelation is given through his appointed servants, the prophets and apostles who direct the affairs of his latter-day kingdom. I know those things were not ceased in Joseph's day, nor have they ceased in our day.
I have recently learned of another scriptural avenue the Lord uses to give insight to people of faith, and which appears to be misunderstood among Saints. Its importance has become very clear to me through scripture study. I owe my strong conviction of the Lord's ordained prophets and apostles in part to this other avenue, which is based in the prophecy of Joel: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions" (Joel 2:2. President Hinckley declared this prophecy fulfilled in 2001 (Hinckley, November 2001 Ensign, Living in the Fullness of Times).
It was three years ago that I read the account of the divine manifestations a man had seen of the other side of the veil and of future events. The content of his book felt natural to me, but I questioned the manner in which it came. I believed this sort of thing should come through a presiding officer of the church.
A year or two later Julie Rowe's books came into my life and described nearly identical things as the first book I read. If you haven't heard of her, she is sort of the icon of a host of Latter-day Saints bearing testimony of latter-day events, which group of people I have come to recognize as fulfilling Joel's prophecy. I knew instantly her experience was authentic, but again, I was troubled by the fact these experiences were not coming through the ordained leaders of the church. So I was caught between powerful confirming emotions I knew to be of the spirit, and a logic that didn’t fit my paradigm which was that only ordained prophets should be revealing this to me.
This inner battle led to the greatest doctrinal journey I've experienced, which lasted for about the course of a year. I regularly did as Joseph Smith, and as James and Moroni directed and asked God (James 1:5, Moroni 10:30). I found that the answers did not come quickly because I hadn't yet sorted doctrines out in my mind (D&C 9:
But the Lord knows there are many like me who have difficulty responding (not in word only) to his ordained servants. Sending additional warners is a familiar pattern in scripture. There were many times when immediately preceding a major calamity, the Lord sent a surge in prophets and warnings to gather and preserve as many as he could (see 1 Nephi 1:4; Ether 11:1; Enos 1:22; Ether 11:12; Jarom 1:4; Jacob 1:6; Jacob 4:6; Alma 32:23; Num. 11:29; Rev. 19:10; 3 Ne. 29:6). Today doesn't appear to be any different. There are many who do not hold the prophetic office (Dallin H. Oaks, 1986, Spiritual Gifts), including men, women, children, members and non-members alike who are bearing witness to the things which they have seen, or have been warned of in these latter-days. Though the church may not publish these warning accounts as part of their curriculum for youth, that does not suggest these accounts are false, as some have supposed.
I emphasize that it was not the authors of the books I read, but the author of their revelations that converted me. Though I have come to love and respect those warners roles in my life, they have only served to point me to the Lord's ordained servants more faithfully. I'm grateful to the Lord for giving me a second chance to really heed his servants who hold the prophetic office, by listening to those who have prophetic gifts of the spirit. I thought I was following the prophet faithfully, but the warners have helped show me I had some progress to make.
The recent accusations from a group of saints inside the church against Julie Rowe, and her recently published books strike a familiar tone to that of the persecution Joseph Smith received. Like his accusers, I have found the comments from Sister Rowe's accusers to be lacking in their doctrinal backing, or in other cases, were motivated by contempt for the church in general. Ironically, some members have bought into the subtle anti-mormon sentiment, which is essentially that revelations of this kind are not achievable to the common person. The prophet Joel would disagree.
The Savior told us to beware of false prophets in sheep's clothing but who are really ravening wolves. Many are quick to judge messages that are not consistent with their own views to be false, and in a fleeting moment, forward the negative email or news article, never giving it the serious effort many of us have. I wonder why the Lord gave this warning at all knowing that members of his church would always be led by one holding the prophetic office. Were his council given according to a more current view, it might have been: "Don't worry about judging between true or false prophets, because you will always have only one. Just follow him." But that isn't what he said. I believe his council was to help us know how to discern truth when it comes from sources other than the Lord's ordained prophet, which also implies that he does indeed send us warnings from others.
The Savior also taught us the way to discern truth from these sources is by their fruits. By listening to the message of the warners, I am more kind to my children, have more purpose in my life, am closer to the Lord, pray more earnestly, have made good preparations, and am more apt to receive revelation, and I even sing with a little more intent at church. Can these fruits come from false prophets? Many of these warners have jobs, families, attend church and temple, and seem to experience the daily struggles we all have, and some with the added burden of being persecuted for their beliefs - they are not ravening wolves. I regret that I didn't change my nature from the testimony of the Lord's ordained prophets alone, but needed this gentle nudge from this group of warners. I'm afraid those who heed neither ordained prophets nor these warners, will be left to the Lord's own preaching of thunderings, earthquakes, and other disasters so frequently mentioned in scripture (see infographic). Perhaps that is what president Monson meant when he said "When the time for decision arrives, the day of preparation is past" (Thomas S. Monson, 2014, Are we Prepared).
The church gives members each fast Sunday an opportunity to share their witnesses of Christ publicly. We share our own revelations from the spirit trusting they will not be treated with contempt by our brothers and sisters. Stephen took the same opportunity to testify of Christ standing on the right hand of God and was rejected and stoned for it.
The next time a spurious email or news article casting stones at our brothers and sisters bearing their testimonies crosses your screen, I urge you to prayerfully consider their message before carelessly passing it on. You are entitled to your own revelation. You may come to find as I have, that they are actually inspired, full of the Love of God, fully sustain the Prophet, and can point you to the Lord and the officers of his church more perfectly. Those are fruits these witnesses have helped bring into my life.
If you are inclined to now throw stones at me for bearing my witness of the special role latter-day warners play, then I shall rest my case that we are a church divided on matters of revelation, and pray for the day we will all recognize what the Lord has done to reach out to his children in order to gather as many into the garners as he can, to preserve and protect them in the days to come.
Sincerely your brother,
Eric Smith
http://doctrinalessays.blogspot.com/...h-members.html
Interesting; however, I notice he conveniently made no mention of the official Church statement.
ReplyDeleteIt would seem that Rowe-items are looking for any way they can find to validate their "faith".
Thoughts?
I really want to know, as I have felt much support for her, if you minus energy healing, and some of her bizarre behavior.
That was the official statement for seminary and institute teaching curriculum
DeleteDaniel, I believe your assumption is that 'the letter' indicates that the LDS church considers Julie Rowe's experience to be false. I didn't get that message. When I read the letter to religious instructors (which was never intended for me to read) I rejoiced that the Church is so committed to truth that it won't even consider things that are mostly true, partly true, or whatever the case is, as part of its curriculum. It strengthened my witness that whatever comes across the pulpit or has the church's logo on it is totally solid doctrinally. I agreed instantly that any NDE experience (except for a couple from scripture) should not be endorsed or taught by the church. Dallin H. Oaks has a great talk called Alternate Voices, that explains the church's proper role in these matters. Bytheway, as my blog indicated, I use revelation from ordained prophets, scriptures, and the Holy Ghost to validate my faith. Julie has character flaws like the rest of us, but is still entitled to revelation, like the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteIraq, I wanted to share something that has been bothering me for sometime now. I understand many have difficulty with Julie Rowe, Spencer, Sara Menet, ect.... but what bothers me most is that other claim that such experiences if shared are against God's will. They justify this using a quote from Joseph Smith, prior to teaching the endowment, He warned the Saints:
ReplyDelete“Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves.”
Fair Mormon in their critique against Vision of Glory, also used this Joseph Smith quote to vindicate their arguments against Spencer and added Dallin H. Oaks testimony on this quote:
“By and large, Latter-day Saints observe this direction. They do not speak publicly of their most sacred experiences. They seldom mention miracles in bearing their testimonies, and they rarely preach from the pulpit about signs that the gospel is true. They usually affirm their testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel by asserting the conclusion, not by giving details on how it was obtained."--(The Lords way, Oaks) However, like FairMormon and others they distort the doctrine and universally apply it across all of Mormonism. Let me share the full text an proper use of what Dallin H. Oaks actually said about sharing spiritual experiences. From his Book "The Lords way" (Here is the remainder of what Dallin H. Oaks said)
"This reluctance to speak of miracles or sacred experiences is sometimes misunderstood by those who do not understand Latter-day Saints, even by other devout Christians. Some years ago I lectured on a legal subject at a prominent Protestant university. Afterwards, several faculty members in the divinity school took me to lunch. They said,“We know about the Mormons' great emphasis on family life. We respect the way faithful Mormons pay a tenth of their income in tithing. We are aware of the many successful Mormons in various fields. But we don't know anything about your private religious lives. We have never heard our Mormon friends speak of this. Do Mormons have any religious experiences? I understood these devout ministers to be saying,“How can you be saved if you have not had a witness of the Spirit?” And“If Mormons have such experiences, why don't they speak about them, as we do in describing the occasion when we were 'saved'?” I assured them that Mormons do have religious experiences, but I explained that we hold such experiences so sacred that we rarely speak of them.”
“Privately, I thought to myself that we Latter-day Saints may go beyond the intent of the command not to boast of miracles or show them before the world. By failing to communicate the richness of our religious life in private conversations with receptive persons of other faiths, we lose opportunities to glorify God and testify of Christ and the blessings of his gospel.
We may even mislead some when we say so much about the visible fruits of Mormonism and the commendable accomplishments of prominent Latter-day Saints and so little (even in general terms) about the rich, private spiritual experiences of the rank and file of Latter-day Saints.” — The Lord's Way, Dallin H. Oaks
Actually, yes he did refer to the statement in his post.
ReplyDeleteHere is a quote from Dallin H. Oaks taken from the talk referenced above:
ReplyDelete"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not attempt to isolate its members from alternate voices. Its approach, as counseled by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is to teach correct principles and then leave its members to govern themselves by personal choices.
Of course, the Church does have a responsibility to point out what is the voice of the Church and what is not. This is especially necessary when some alternate voice, deliberately or inadvertently, communicates a message in a way that implies Church sponsorship or acquiescence."
For the same reason, the Church does approve or disapprove those publications that are to be published or used in the official activities of the Church, general or local. For example, we have procedures to ensure approved content for materials published in the name of the Church or used for instruction in its classes. These procedures can be somewhat slow and cumbersome, but they have an important benefit. They provide a spiritual quality control that allows members to rely on the truth of what is said. Members who listen to the voice of the Church need not be on guard against being misled. They have no such assurance for what they hear from alternate voices.
Members of the Church are free to participate or to listen to any alternate voices they choose, but Church leaders should avoid official involvement, directly or indirectly.
As Latter-day Saints consider their personal relationship to various alternate voices, they will be helped by considering the ways we acquire knowledge, especially knowledge of sacred things.
In modern revelation the Lord has told us to “seek learning … by study and also by faith.” (D&C 109:7.)
We seek learning by studying the accumulated wisdom of various disciplines and by using the powers of reasoning placed in us by our Creator.
We should also seek learning by faith in God, the giver of revelation. I believe that many of the great discoveries and achievements in science and the arts have resulted from a God-given revelation. Seekers who have paid the price in perspiration have been magnified by inspiration."
Why would anyone expect the church to teach as doctrine the personal spiritual experiences of ordinary members?
ReplyDeleteNobody has mentioned the GLARING fact that she was allowed to speak in stake centers and tabernacles, by the same church that published the statement you have mentioned.
Do we really believe that the church would allow someone to teach false doctrine in our stake centers and tabernacles, with no censure or warning whatsoever?
Do we believe that the church was unaware of the content of her experiences after numerous radio interviews and two published books?
The scriptures contain numerous references to prophets being sent to warn the people, I like Acts 11:27,28. Here's a man, Agabus who was not the Prophet (Peter was the Prophet) who prophesied of a great dearth ( famine our drought)
that the scripture says was fulfilled.
Julie Rowe has never claimed to be a prophet, but continually encourages everyone to follow the Prophet, yet here are all these people railing like the fools in the floating house of Lehi's dream.
She simply shared a very sacred experience that has inspired many like me to finally get ready.
I needed that "kick" and will always be grateful for what she had done for me and mine.
Where's the fine line between prophet/prophetess when someone claims from a NDE that they have been commanded by God to share their experience with the world if they agree to be shown the future? Julie says that's basically what happened to her and that she dreaded when the years were up and the time had come to speak of her visions.
ReplyDeleteI realize she's not saying "Thus sayeth the Lord unto you" like a prophet does BUT some prophets have also testified/prophesied/warned of coming calamties as well.
Can someone please explain the difference between what she's doing and a prophet if she's sharing something the Lord has shown her under His command.
She claims to be speaking/sharing under the command of the Lord.
Yes, I understand she's not speaking for the Church as a whole to move and act as one like our current prophet has the authority to do. Lots of people have dreams/visions of the future from God but they're not commanded to go around sharing it in different venues.
I think Julie is a very nice person. I bought her books. I have to admit I got "cringy" and uncomfortable when I got to the energy healing part that was thrown in at the end of her book. Then the energy healing gig begins to develop into "Christ-centered" energy healing "conferences" that cost $$$. It's almost like the "guru" thing and I stay as far away from that as possible.